Text on screen: PIMCO
Text on screen: PIMCO provides services only to qualified institutions and investors. This is not an offer to any person in any jurisdiction where unlawful or unauthorized.
Text on screen: Kimberley Stafford, Global Head of Product Strategy
Kim Stafford: Hello. I’m Kim Stafford, and I’m here again with PIMCO group CIO Dan Ivascyn, to give you an inside look at some of the recent discussions taking place within PIMCO’s investment committee, or IC. Thank you for joining us, Dan.
Dan Ivascyn: Thanks, Kim.
Kim Stafford: Many investors have been surprised about the decline in yields over the recent period. So, can you discuss why yields have been falling, and if bond markets are trying to signal to any important trends to investors, particularly in light of the fact that we’ve seen equities reach new highs?
Text on screen: Daniel J. Ivascyn, Group Chief Investment Officer
Dan Ivascyn: Sure. It’s of course always tough to know for sure what’s driving moves in interest rates, but let me bucket them in two categories, the first being technical. We still are in a world where there’s very little yield.
So this is a market environment, or a trading environment, that feels like people want to add duration or interest rate exposure.
Text on screen: Driving factors behind interest rate moves: 1. Pent up demand for interest rate exposure
Images on screen: PIMCO trade floor
Of course, there are some legitimate concerns around inflation but in general, a lot of pent-up demand for interest rate exposure. We think that is helping support yields, even driving yields lower.
But from a fundamental perspective, looking at economic data carefully over the course of the last couple of months,
Text on screen: Driving factors behind interest rate moves: 2. Signs we have reached peak growth
Images on screen: PIMCO trade floor
there have been signs that we have reached peak growth, that a lot of the impact of the stimulus that occurred last year is beginning to dissipate, that these COVID variants, led by Delta, of course, is leading to some growth pressure or reopening pressure that we’re seeing across the economy here in this country, but in other regions around the world, particularly emerging markets, as well. And that has, we think, caused the market to reduce their growth assumptions somewhat.
Kim Stafford: You mentioned low yields, you mentioned the search for return. So, we’ve definitely seen an uptick in interest in alternative investments, particularly for clients who can give up liquidity. So, how are you thinking about investing across public and private markets, and how do you assess which strategies may or may not be appropriate for different investors?
Dan Ivascyn: Clients are looking to be creative to maintain returns they’ve grown to expect, or given pretty full valuations, looking for resiliency and protection where they can find it.
Text on screen: Maintaining flexibility may help clients looking for resiliency
Images on screen: PIMCO trade floor
And one way to achieve that, of course, is to be more flexible in terms of the mandates that you focus on. That may mean giving up liquidity, it may mean straying away from what is typically in a more traditional fixed income or equity benchmark type product.
And that, of course, is what PIMCO is trying to assist our investors with. Be solutions providers, look to create flexible mandates when a client can afford to give up some liquidity.
Images on screen: The Federal Reserve building
And in the current environment, with central bank support being so impactful to more traditional areas of the market, we think it makes perfect sense to look for that flexibility, and that sometimes means tapping into opportunities on the private side of the opportunity set, but certainly expanding the mandate, being more flexible, sometimes working in a very non-traditional way as true partners in various types of strategic mandates, as well. And I think by doing that, you can pick up meaningful incremental return, incremental yield, if you’re talking about the fixed income opportunity set. The relative attractiveness of some of these more off the run sectors remains quite wide, from a historical perspective.
Kim Stafford: And any examples of alternatives that you’re seeing that you find opportunity today?
Dan Ivascyn: Sure. Looking at the commercial real estate markets,
Text on screen: Areas of opportunity: 1. Commercial mortgage-backed securities
Images on screen: Corporate office buildings
the CMBS, more traditional segment of the public opportunity set have seen spreads compress significantly, across the capital structure. AAA risk, but also lower-rated risk, even higher-yielding segments of a typical CMBS capital structure have become a bit expensive, again, from a historical perspective. You look at the same or similar risk over in parts of the private opportunity set, and there continues to be significant value.
Similar example in the corporate credit space.
Text on screen: Areas of opportunity: 2. Corporate credit COVID-19 recovery themes
Images on screen: Gaming, a couple dining outside, hotel exterior
In the more liquid segments of the market, certain Covid recovery themes and trades we continue to find attractive. Gaming, hospitality, the leisure sectors, as examples of segments of the market that we expect to continue to perform. But when you cross over to the private opportunity set, similar themes, the ability to invest with more direct control, potentially better protective covenants, and an expanded opportunity set.
Kim Stafford: You mention commercial real estate, maybe we’ll delve a little bit deeper there. An area that straddles both public and private markets, one that has had a little bit of upheaval during the pandemic. So, maybe specific opportunities in commercial real estate from your perspective.
Dan Ivascyn: Absolutely right. There’s the opportunity to potentially generate returns,
Text on screen: Commercial real estate opportunities: 1. Lodging
Images on screen: Hotel exteriors
by targeting areas of the market that were most significantly hit by the Covid situation, the lodging sector as an example.
Text on screen: Commercial real estate opportunities: 2. Office space
Images on screen: Corporate office buildings
But there’s also ways to invest with a more resilient profile. Segments of the higher quality areas of the office space, as an example. Then, finally, from a very top-down perspective, although we’re early in the recovery process, from a valuation perspective, things feel late cycle. There’s a lot of debt out there in the world. A lot of debt within the more traditional corporate credit markets. And because of this demand for yield globally, you don’t get the same type of protective covenants. So it’s nice, late in the cycle, to have an investment that’s backed by a real building, backed by a hard asset.
Text on screen: Commercial real estate opportunities: 3. Commercial mortgage-backed securities
Images on screen: Residential neighborhoods
The commercial real estate, even commercial mortgage backed securities, are an example of a profile that typically is more resilient than securing corporate debt alternatives. Not alone; we still like asset-backed investments, housing related investments, particularly seasoned investments that don’t rely on home prices to continue to increase, but have benefited from the significant increases we’ve seen the last year or two.
But we think those are good later cycle investments from a valuation perspective.
Kim Stafford: So where else where PIMCO’s seeing, what are other high-conviction ideas right now, and importantly, where are we avoiding in markets?
Dan Ivascyn: Sure. So,
Text on screen: TITLE – High conviction ideas and market areas to avoid: BULLETS – Defensive on interest rate exposure, Constructive on inflation in the base case, Cautious on generic corporate credit, Selective in emerging markets
we’re defensive on interest rate exposure here. We’re fairly constructive, at least in the base case, that inflation will remain relatively under control, and revert back to levels that central banks are comfortable with.
You’re just not getting paid a lot, to take significant inflation risk across portfolios, high quality segments of the bond market look a little expensive to us.
Also, more generic areas of the corporate credit markets, we think look a lot less interesting to us.
Then finally there are areas of the emerging markets that we think make sense to diversify portfolio exposure, generate some incremental returns. But you have to be incredibly selective, down at the country level, and then even within a country, determining what the best way to express views are, where it’s external debt, local rates, currency.
Kim Stafford: Thanks very much, Dan, and thanks to all of you for joining us, and we’ll see you next time.
Text on screen: For more insights and information, visit pimco.com
Text on screen: PIMCO 50 1971-2021
Please note that the following contains the opinions of the manager as of the date noted, and may not have been updated to reflect real time market developments. All opinions are subject to change without notice.
There is no guarantee that these investment strategies will work under all market conditions or are appropriate for all investors and each investor should evaluate their ability to invest long-term, especially during periods of downturn in the market. Statements concerning financial market trends or portfolio strategies are based on current market conditions, which will fluctuate. There is no guarantee that these investment strategies will work under all market conditions or are appropriate for all investors and each investor should evaluate their ability to invest for the long term, especially during periods of downturn in the market. Outlook and strategies are subject to change without notice.
A word about risk: Investing in the bond market is subject to risks, including market, interest rate, issuer, credit, inflation risk, and liquidity risk. The value of most bonds and bond strategies are impacted by changes in interest rates. Bonds and bond strategies with longer durations tend to be more sensitive and volatile than those with shorter durations; bond prices generally fall as interest rates rise, and low interest rate environments increase this risk. Reductions in bond counterparty capacity may contribute to decreased market liquidity and increased price volatility. Bond investments may be worth more or less than the original cost when redeemed. High yield, lower-rated securities involve greater risk than higher-rated securities; portfolios that invest in them may be subject to greater levels of credit and liquidity risk than portfolios that do not. Mortgage- and asset-backed securities may be sensitive to changes in interest rates, subject to early repayment risk, and while generally supported by a government, government-agency or private guarantor, there is no assurance that the guarantor will meet its obligations. U.S. agency mortgage-backed securities issued by Ginnie Mae (GNMA) are backed by the full faith and credit of the United States government. Securities issued by Freddie Mac (FHLMC) and Fannie Mae (FNMA) provide an agency guarantee of timely repayment of principal and interest but are not backed by the full faith and credit of the U.S. government. Alternative investments involve a high degree of risk and can be illiquid due to restrictions on transfer and lack of a secondary trading market. They can be highly leveraged, speculative and volatile, and an investor could lose all or a substantial amount of an investment. Alternative investments may lack transparency as to share price, valuation and portfolio holdings. Complex tax structures often result in delayed tax reporting. Diversification does not ensure against loss.
This material contains the opinions of the manager and such opinions are subject to change without notice. This material has been distributed for informational purposes only and should not be considered as investment advice or a recommendation of any particular security, strategy or investment product. Information contained herein has been obtained from sources believed to be reliable, but not guaranteed.
PIMCO as a general matter provides services to qualified institutions, financial intermediaries and institutional investors. Individual investors should contact their own financial professional to determine the most appropriate investment options for their financial situation. This is not an offer to any person in any jurisdiction where unlawful or unauthorized. | Pacific Investment Management Company LLC, 650 Newport Center Drive, Newport Beach, CA 92660 is regulated by the United States Securities and Exchange Commission. | PIMCO Europe Ltd (Company No. 2604517) is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority (12 Endeavour Square, London E20 1JN) in the UK. The services provided by PIMCO Europe Ltd are not available to retail investors, who should not rely on this communication but contact their financial adviser. | PIMCO Europe GmbH (Company No. 192083, Seidlstr. 24-24a, 80335 Munich, Germany), PIMCO Europe GmbH Italian Branch (Company No. 10005170963), PIMCO Europe GmbH Irish Branch (Company No. 909462), PIMCO Europe GmbH UK Branch (Company No. 2604517) and PIMCO Europe GmbH Spanish Branch (N.I.F. W2765338E) are authorised and regulated by the German Federal Financial Supervisory Authority (BaFin) (Marie- Curie-Str. 24-28, 60439 Frankfurt am Main) in Germany in accordance with Section 15 of the German Banking Act (WpIG). The Italian Branch, Irish Branch, UK Branch and Spanish Branch are additionally supervised by: (1) Italian Branch: the Commissione Nazionale per le Società e la Borsa (CONSOB) in accordance with Article 27 of the Italian Consolidated Financial Act; (2) Irish Branch: the Central Bank of Ireland in accordance with Regulation 43 of the European Union (Markets in Financial Instruments) Regulations 2017, as amended; (3) UK Branch: the Financial Conduct Authority; and (4) Spanish Branch: the Comisión Nacional del Mercado de Valores (CNMV) in accordance with obligations stipulated in articles 168 and 203 to 224, as well as obligations contained in Tile V, Section I of the Law on the Securities Market (LSM) and in articles 111, 114 and 117 of Royal Decree 217/2008, respectively. The services provided by PIMCO Europe GmbH are available only to professional clients as defined in Section 67 para. 2 German Securities Trading Act (WpHG). They are not available to individual investors, who should not rely on this communication.| PIMCO (Schweiz) GmbH (registered in Switzerland, Company No. CH-020.4.038.582-2). The services provided by PIMCO (Schweiz) GmbH are not available to retail investors, who should not rely on this communication but contact their financial adviser. | PIMCO Asia Pte Ltd (Registration No. 199804652K) is regulated by the Monetary Authority of Singapore as a holder of a capital markets services licence and an exempt financial adviser. The asset management services and investment products are not available to persons where provision of such services and products is unauthorised. | PIMCO Asia Limited is licensed by the Securities and Futures Commission for Types 1, 4 and 9 regulated activities under the Securities and Futures Ordinance. PIMCO Asia Limited is registered as a cross-border discretionary investment manager with the Financial Supervisory Commission of Korea (Registration No. 08-02-307). The asset management services and investment products are not available to persons where provision of such services and products is unauthorised. | PIMCO Investment Management (Shanghai) Limited Unit 3638-39, Phase II Shanghai IFC, 8 Century Avenue, Pilot Free Trade Zone, Shanghai, 200120, China (Unified social credit code: 91310115MA1K41MU72) is registered with Asset Management Association of China as Private Fund Manager (Registration No. P1071502, Type: Other) | PIMCO Australia Pty Ltd ABN 54 084 280 508, AFSL 246862. This publication has been prepared without taking into account the objectives, financial situation or needs of investors. Before making an investment decision, investors should obtain professional advice and consider whether the information contained herein is appropriate having regard to their objectives, financial situation and needs. | PIMCO Japan Ltd, Financial Instruments Business Registration Number is Director of Kanto Local Finance Bureau (Financial Instruments Firm) No. 382. PIMCO Japan Ltd is a member of Japan Investment Advisers Association and The Investment Trusts Association, Japan. All investments contain risk. There is no guarantee that the principal amount of the investment will be preserved, or that a certain return will be realized; the investment could suffer a loss. All profits and losses incur to the investor. The amounts, maximum amounts and calculation methodologies of each type of fee and expense and their total amounts will vary depending on the investment strategy, the status of investment performance, period of management and outstanding balance of assets and thus such fees and expenses cannot be set forth herein. | PIMCO Taiwan Limited is managed and operated independently. The reference number of business license of the company approved by the competent authority is (109) Jin Guan Tou Gu Xin Zi No. 027. 40F., No.68, Sec. 5, Zhongxiao E. Rd., Xinyi Dist., Taipei City 110, Taiwan (R.O.C.). Tel: +886 2 8729-5500. | PIMCO Canada Corp. (199 Bay Street, Suite 2050, Commerce Court Station, P.O. Box 363, Toronto, ON, M5L 1G2) services and products may only be available in certain provinces or territories of Canada and only through dealers authorized for that purpose. | PIMCO Latin America Av. Brigadeiro Faria Lima 3477, Torre A, 5° andar São Paulo, Brazil 04538-133. | No part of this publication may be reproduced in any form, or referred to in any other publication, without express written permission. PIMCO is a trademark of Allianz Asset Management of America L.P. in the United States and throughout the world. ©2021, PIMCO.